Comments on: The Profit Motive; A response to Francois Tremblay

By: http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/

http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/ — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 19:18:48 +0000

Voluntaryism is irrelevant when we have an ideological monopoly. Capitalism mandates exploitation and oppression- of the workers, of the third-world, of the environment. Democracy mandates the exploitation and oppression of all its subjects, whather they vote for it or not.

In a free society, yes, you should be free to choose a hierarchy if you are so damaged that you can’t live any other way. But this is NOT a free society. This is a society, an economic system based on theft, illegitimate property, control and extortion.

By: scineram

scineram — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:58:23 +0000

I was talking about not monopolistic hierarchy. That which is voluntary.

By: Mike Gogulski

Mike Gogulski — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:33:47 +0000

@Dano: Well, that’s a nice vision. However, there’s a habit of mind I employ in such cases, which is to tell myself that utopia isn’t possible. Economic scarcity is. Human nature is. Building models for now or the near future based on radical changes to our current situation leaves the departs the realm of philosophy for the realm of fiction.

By: Francois Tremblay

Francois Tremblay — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:58:15 +0000

There is no such thing as voluntary adherence to a monopolistic hierarchy.

You have to choose between freedom and control. There are no other choices.

By: scineram

scineram — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 03:46:57 +0000

I recognize hierarchy when I see it. I just accept it if voluntary.

By: Cork

Cork — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:54:59 +0000

That last post was mine–Blogger did something weird..

By: http://corktageous.blogspot.com/

http://corktageous.blogspot.com/ — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:53:21 +0000

Franc,

I went through a period of great interest in this whole schtick, so I’m more than familiar with all these arguments you’r emaking. I’ve “tried leftism on to see how it fits.” I’ve taken the time to read a pretty substantial amount of radical leftist literature, with an open mind. I know all of their very best arguments, and I’ve also read responses to those arguments (which utterly demolish them). Few lefties, imo, are interested in reading or even considering counter-arguments.

If free-market capitalism is “hierarchical,” then so is any economic system, because every economic system requires us to “submit” to the demands of clients and consumers. This is as true for communism, collectivism, and guilds as it is for capitalism.

The left’s proposed alternatives (which they are never much interested in) tend to be pretty ridiculous models, considering how spontaneous, complex, and widespread economic activity is.

I could go on and on about these kinds of flaws, but I’m not sure there would be much of a point. The point is, many of us do genuinely understand the leftist positions and simply reject them.

By: Francois Tremblay

Francois Tremblay — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:39:41 +0000

You guys just refuse to recognize that work hierarchies are hierarchies because you’re capitalist holdouts, that’s all. I used to be in the same situation as you. I understand the mindset.

Once you understand the contradiction, you’ll eventually have to choose between capitalism and Anarchy, between force and freedom.

By: Francois Tremblay

Francois Tremblay — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:37:47 +0000

No one’s asking you to lend me anything. In an Anarchist system, you wouldn’t need to lend anyone anything: you’d own it, or not.

By: scineram

scineram — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 23:09:31 +0000

Great post, I was thinking along the same lines reading him. I wonder if syndicalist ever leave their homes or park their cars.